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From the desk of the exRSFC
The one single thing that the Rebel Squadrons is all about is creating as beleivable an Alternate Reality for ourselves as we possibly can. While we are a fan club, our structure is military - our format is based on the Rebellion, but modified to accomodate all our different divisions and various pieces. Therefore the Chain of Command is consistent with who we are and how we can best run the RS. Our chain of command runs from the general member, all the way up through the Division Leaders and ends at the top with the Rebel Squadrons Fleet Commander. ...or...at least...that's the way it's supposed to work. The RSFC gives the "orders", and the Division Leaders see to it that those Big Picture Ideas are disseminated throughout the club. But some interesting things have happened over the years. The Division Leaders (not all), et al, have decided that their own vision of the RS outranks the RSFC's, and that the RSFC can "lead", but only if he goes in the direction they want. Should the things that would make the RS a better club be attempted to be put into place, and it disagrees with their personal philosophy, then these attempts are not only ignored, but met with public ridicule. The motives and actions intended to be improvements are twisted and perverted into something "controlling" and/or "taking away people's rights". This note too will be run through the mud and I'll be called a Tool, and probably worse, as has happened already a number of times. Unfortunately, the "political" atmosphere of the RS very often parallels that of the political atmosphere of the United States. I have to laugh at the Democrats and the Republicans of the US system. One of the main differences that I see from my perspective, being neither myself, is that the Republicans will fight anyone over just about anything, but the Democrats will only fight the Republicans. This would be funny in itself, except that I feel like I'm the Republican, and the Popular Group controlling the RS are the Democrats. I'm told by at least three people "I'm going to be really pissed off if..." fill in the blank. Okay. But it's not really about you, is it. It's about the Rebel Squadrons. It doesn't matter if you don't personally like what ever it was, if it's good for the RS. And that's exactly the problem. The rot in the upper ranks has been here so long and has run so deep that the Popular Group thinks that's the way it's supposed to be. To be fair, it started well before you got here, so you probably never saw the RS when it was great. The people are out there. The Dark Brotherhood exists and is doing fairly well, just to name one. There's a reason that the people are in those other clubs and not in the RS. They must be better clubs than the RS is. Respect plays a very big part in that. Respect for each other, and for what the Rebel Squadrons is. But that's gone and forgotten by the Popular Group, who apparently can only respect someone that can properly use the word *expletive deleted* three times in one sentence. So, I've seen tantrums thrown by the leaders of the RS, who are supposed to be adults, but only act like spoiled children. I've seen children emulating those alleged adults apparently to win their favor. I tried to give the RS a better way to be, and I was met only with ridicule and tantrums. One tantrum too many, in fact. As I used to tell my daughter: "If you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got." In this case, if the RS doesn't remember who it is, and who it's supposed to be, the membership and activity will continue to dwindle, and the Rebel Squadrons and the awesome thing that the RS website is will evaporate into nothingness. I said that I won't sit and watch that happen. I fought the good fight to keep it from happening, but until the Popular Group see that they are part of the problem, and not anything even resembling the solution, the RS will continue stagnating until there's nothing left worth keeping alive. Kaz...as I once accused you, my second term in the Big Chair has been a complete failure - I have been less than effectual in improving the RS. I don't feel that I'm the only one qualified to get the RS back on track - Dave, Rahj, Lamin and possibly Cyrel or Blaster might be able to do it. But until the top level of the RS actually wants to be led, they'll likely meet with just as much success as I did. The Rebel Squadrons is a volunteer organization, but the one thing that I didn't volunteer for, and will not tolerate, is being abused. That being said... as I send this note, and post the article, I've taken myself out of the RSFC's chair on the roster, placed Sconn back in, taken myself out of the PSG XO seat, taken myself out of the TIE Mission Building instructor seat and Red Squadron, and I will have taken myself off the High Command mailing list. Someone will need to contact me about switching the billing for the RebelSquadrons.org domain name, because I will not be paying for it again - there's at least a year left prepaid. Since it was brought to my attention that "only seven people are reporting/flying the PSG tours", and "your time would be better spent on the rest of the RS" (or something close to those), and I don't particularly want to let those seven down... I will continue the PSG X-Wing tour, but it will be done completely separate from the RS website, with my own mailing list. I will be discontinuing the TIE Tour, though. If you're in the PSG, and want to continue getting emailed the chapters of the X-Wing tour, then please send me an email (MtnLionRC@aol.com) so I can add you to the list. I'll be putting Grey's entire tour site up on my personal site, so you can find the TIE tour there, if you were interested, if it's not gettable at < grey.rebelsquadrons.org/tour5/tour5.htm > - the tour starts at the bottom. I will be working on Grey's Tour 6, and as I get things on my personal website together more (mtnlionrc.webs.com), I'll be noting the progress that I've made on each piece. My X-Wing Manual is already up. I'm putting my TIE Manual together, so it will eventually be up, as well. This isn't about picking up my toys and going home. It's about You Win, I Lose, and God help the Rebel Squadrons, because those in power right now can't and won't help the RS. Not until they decide to follow the right path.
|=/(:"
RC
Castor Eftrata-Landis, Admiral
|=/(:"
RC
Castor Eftrata-Landis, Admiral
Comments
FA Sienn "The Rot" Sconn - Fri Nov 13 2009, 4:02pm
Since you've chosen to repost your news article without the profanity, Castor, I won't delete it. The original, of course, is still archived in each RS member's inbox.Castor:
Since you've chosen to run away with your tail between your legs and take off without making so much as a good faith attempt at actual improvement, leaving the club you claim to care so deeply about entirely in the lurch... you'll excuse me if I feel compelled to point a few things out to you on your way out the door; which frankly, I hope DOES hit you on the way out.
"The RSFC gives the "orders", and the Division Leaders see to it that those Big Picture Ideas are disseminated throughout the club."
-- The problem with this scenario is that you never gave any "orders". If this is truly your idea of how the club is supposed to run, you can't fault the Division Leaders; who to my recollection received no orders from you as RSFC beyond a vague suggestion that mailing lists be set up in the case of another domain outage. I can speak personally in my role as RSXO that I never got any sort of e-mail, or even IRC request delegating me to do anything.
While we're at it, let's talk about the "Big Picture Ideas" that you claim the FC is supposed to be disseminating through the club. What were yours? I cite as evidence the personal conversation we had on IRC over two weeks ago in which you blatantly stated that you had no big picture ideas. Which probably explains, by the way, why you deferred any real response to the HC thread last week in which three separate members of High Command asked you flat out what your plans were, to no response except this vitriolic and petty "screw you guys, I'm going home" rant that you saw fit to post on the main page; profanity and all. That, by the way, was a nice touch -- quite in line with HIER without at all being incredibly inappropriate. Never mind your repeated statements that you're trying to make the RS a family friendly club. Here's some of your philosophy on it from that conversation we had:
[22:34]
[22:34]
[22:34]
[22:34]
So...what choice were you offering when you sent an e-mail out to the entire club with multiple instances of profanity? Way to lead by example.
"The rot in the upper ranks has been here so long and has run so deep that the Popular Group thinks that's the way it's supposed to be."
-- You refer to this "popular group" many times, Castor. I'm curious to know who you see in it. Clearly they are the people responsible for why you can't make this club great. I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that you devoted most of your term as FC to an IRC witchhunt; or the weeks-long hiatus you'd been on until you wrote this e-mail. Not to mention that the bylaws change to Section 2 that you were so intent on getting pushed through because it would give you the freedom to do the things you wanted to do. It passed, by the way, in early October. And since then, you made no attempt to do anything. If you did, I certainly wasn't made aware of it as RSXO which seems suspect; and if you had done anything, it obviously never made it into an implementation phase, since...mmm...nothing's been done from the Fleet Commander's office.
In your whole stream of consciousness, blame everyone but yourself rant that I found in my inbox this morning; I will agree with one point. The People Are Out There. For example, you've got the people working in the Recruiting Office, on an idea for RS Advertising -- something you suggested in one of your many (but mostly trite and non-sensical) missives From the Desk of the FC. Of course, you couldn't be bothered to actually REPLY to that e-mail discussion thread, and so things have halted. Your input was specifically asked for; according to my e-mail inbox 9 days ago. Likewise, as previously mentioned; your lack of response to HC threads specifically questioning you is also troubling.
"I don't feel that I'm the only one qualified to get the RS back on track - Dave, Rahj, Lamin and possibly Cyrel or Blaster might be able to do it. ... I've taken myself out of the RSFC's chair on the roster, placed Sconn back in, ..."
-- On a personal level, Castor; I find yet another incongruency in your logic; I'm not on the list of people you feel qualified to get the RS back on track, and yet you choose to leave me in charge. Which, y'know, if you'd taken the time to familiarize yourself with the RS bylaws you would have realized would have happened anyway.
In conclusion; I guess I'd just like to express my disappointment in the hypocrisy of your actions and conduct. You preach quite openly about the importance of respect; but seem to define respect on your terms and even then, I'm not even so sure that your definition is correct. Respect is not showing someone respect in a public forum such as HC, and then trash-talking them behind their back. Respect is not about saying one thing and doing another. Respect is a two-way street, and something that is earned -- I'm sorry that you personally felt disrespected and abused; but I also cannot in good conscious say that you treated other members of the RS with very much respect either. This entire news post, which, by the way, I deleted from the main site due to your use of profanity, was incredibly disrespectful. It's one thing to have a channel on IRC that people choose to join, knowing that if they do, they may see some adult language. It's another thing entirely to have it sent to your inbox in the guise of an official club wide e-mail. Which, by the way is probably a bylaws violation in its own right.
I think the point of view expressed at the end of this e-mail shows your lack of hope for the RS, which is quite a sad thing from someone that members of HC trusted with the capacity to lead the club. It could be that this defeatist attitude is what prevented you from doing anything in office; but I really think it's the inability to accept responsibility for your own actions. I respectfully opine that I believe unfortunately that the club is better off without you in charge, and quite possibly, even around.
-Vice Admiral Sienn "Morningstar" Sconn
ADM Castor Efrata-Landis - Fri Nov 13 2009, 6:12pm
Since I'm off the RSHC list, I'll have to work up the addys I know.If you want me out the door, Matt, why did you bring me back in?
I don't give orders, I give suggestions. Is the distinction significant? And would it really have mattered? Had I said: "Get this done" or "Everyone will show Respect from now on" or any of the other things I wrote about; would being Roninesque have made those things be received with open arms, or met just as much resistance, apathy and ridicule? I'm thinking it wouldn't have made much difference.
What were my Big Picture Ideas? Surely you jest. I gave some of them time and time again. The first changes have to come from within. It's like I tell my wife: "You want to lose weight? It doesn't come form a pill. There is no magic bullet. It has to come from inside of you first." Good Faith try at an improvement...? Have you been that toasted that you hadn't noticed?
Email with profanity. Please. Your emails and many of the others contain continous F-Bombs, the forums are full of profanity, and you've filled the #rs room with more than most. Your adherence to double standards amazes me.
You're absoltely not one of the qualified to run the RS, and definitely part of the rot. There is no correct logic that you will follow willingly as the booze, et al, very often leads to your fuzzy thinking and tantrums. You were the XO, so you're in charge. I don't like to see the Big Chair vacant under any circumstances. Call it Acting, if need be. Could I have put anyone in there. No. But it doesn't really matter all that much, you or whomever, since y'all are strangling the RS to death, and Rahj certainly won't be allowed to take it again while y'all are still here.
My weeks away were due to RL circumstances, I'm sure you know what those are, and what an inconvenience they can be. Apparently I'm not allowed to have any? I'd mentioned that in my last email to HC, and they continued. I need not explain my Real Life situation to you, or anyone in the RS. As it was, I gave more information to Markus than he needed to know.
I can't lead those who don't want to be led. It's been that way for a long time - HC can't deal with an RSFC with a vision for the RS. Those in the Cool Gang don't have a clue what needs to be done to lead the RS, so they "burn out", or whatever, quickly. Those not in the Cool Gang - and you and I and everyone else knows exactly who they are, pleading ignorance doesn't become you - are resisted, ignored, and belittled. ...which is quite good for the RS. Yep. Sure is. Not.
You don't make much of a Space Lawyer, by the way, nor much of a debater. And, between the two of us, you and I, it's actually YOU and your drunken tantrums that the RS could do without. Firing you would have had worse consequences/ramifications, than my stepping down.
In the meantime, I'm getting a number of emails, cheering me on, saying that they agree with everything I said and, while lamenting then situation, applauding my putting such a loud voice to noting the rot within the RS. I plan on posting them in News Articles, and I hope that you don't show your fear of the Truth by deleting them, or preventing me from posting them in some other way.
So, if/when the RS is serious about being led, and will actively work with me to improve things then I'm ready to talk. Until then, the RS is a GIGO system - Garbage In, Garbage Out - and the heap keeps getting bigger, and the RS continues to be buried under it more deeply with each passing hour. I suggest taking out the garbage, as I did while I was in the Big Chair.
Have fun in the B&G with this one.
As respectfully submitted as it can be,
|=/(:"
RC
Castor Efrata-Landis, Admiral
Honesty, Integrity, Equanimity, and Respect
...one of the very few that do.
LCL Davin Ingram Kabak - Fri Nov 13 2009, 6:43pm
Bravo, Castor.Of all things I can respect in a person, the courage to stand up to injustice publicly is by far one of the best attributes of character within a person. You demonstrate that here and now.
You have highlighted several key issues that have been either ignored, or at the very least selectively overlooked, by those who consider themselves to be the leadership of this club. The continual oligarchical structure of this club, and the continuous cycling of the same people into and out of offices is enough to make one dizzy. The end result being a veritable musical chairs, with the general membership being the ones left standing when the music stops.
I myself am probably not considered an 'influential' member of this club. In fact, I would consider myself fairly inconsequential in the overall scheme of things here. Of this, I am both proud, and glad. It is no secret that I have made it a point to be the advocate for those who would not otherwise speak out. It is this very nature that has likely prevented me from gaining any great measure of notoriety or position within the RS command structure. Of this, I can now say I am also proud.
For whatever it is worth, I stand behind you Castor. You have spoken the truth, and have never given me, one of the general membership, any reason to doubt your integrity or sincerity. That has become a precious commodity within this club, a fact that you have quite successfully and accurately placed a spotlight upon.
Respect is not simply given. It is earned. You have earned my respect, Castor, and I shall support you in whatever endeavor you choose to pursue, be it within this club or elsewhere.
Respectfully,
Lt. Colonel Davin Ingram Kabak
":-)
Honesty, Integrity, Equanimity, and Respect
"Even the greatest of trees can rot from within, but the vigilant gardener keeps attentive to the signs of decay. The Gardener is not afraid to cut through the polished skin to tear away a malignant heart, to save the life of that tree. Those who seek shade under that tree would best remember the work of that gardener."
- Emperor Uueg Tching, 54th Emperor of the Kitel Phard Dynasty, Atrisia
"Attitude is everything."
- Me
FA Joshua Hawkins - Fri Nov 13 2009, 7:16pm
Well here's an interesting pissing contest. Great thing to have on the front page guys thanks. You know there are other ways to judge your epeen right? IRC, IMs, Email, some other PRIVATE method of discussions. THis never occurred to anyone though. Let's just throw everything out there and see what happens, cause it's my way or the highway. Bahh. Having been RFXO for two FC's I can honestly say, this is nothing new. The FC hasn't had any power since Raven was in charge. Kaz had the power but kept getting the shaft for everything he tried to do to make the club better. Oh and even though Kaz can be an ass, he really does care about the club, but no one ever sees past the ass part. This is neither here nor there. The ultimate problem with the club, is no one wants to do anything. Those that are doing things are over worked, and those that do want to work get lost in the shuffle.
The revolving door of FC is also nothing new. Heck, every command position has it at some level. Which gives the problem of, people being over worked. There's no one new to take the places of leaders so the current leaders can focus on something else. The "best people for the job" are the one's who are burnt out.
You fix the "get someone new in here" problem, and you'll start to fix the club. Also, by the by, language does not always equal lack of respect. I have respect for a good many people here, doesn't stop me from calling them a fucker from time to time.
No new people, equals overused leaders, overused leaders equals mistakes. Now can we stop posting crap here and get backto doing nothing, erm.. running this club please?
COL Teu Veld - Fri Nov 13 2009, 8:15pm
I find this all wonderful that a grown man is acting like a child and throwing blame on other people and none onto himself. Also what about all this get up about being all high and proper, any time I talked to you, you talked down on me like I was some child. Yes I’m 17 but I am not a child and I sure as hell aint acting like someone just to get attention or favor. I can take note when something is not working, I a regular member who sat back and let things play out what to know what was made different besides angering many people, that yes I look up to. And Sconn is not a bad person to the rebel squadrons. If you think so then you have some eyes that need checking, I mean yes he drunk a lot and stoned as well but he adds hilarity and a light touch. I find this all annoying and quite ridicules and people need to grow up. ::Looks at people accusingly::.
And I hate it when people try to justify things so that the children don’t get hurt, think of the children. I have yet to come across someone under the age of 14. And if people quit wishing things were like they were years ago, they ought to realize that sometimes kids should be heard too and not told to do what the older ones are right.
Yes I curse, Yes I joke around. But I sure as hell do things around here. I also don’t like being told that what I know is wrong. Yes everyone has been a teenager and yes everyone has valuable advice, but when you are almost three times as old as I am tell me that they are going to be the Father of the RS. It doesn’t need a father that dictates what they think is right.
I mean I don’t know who half the people are on HC, I thought that people were supposed to know what is going on in the club not some drifter who hasn’t been on since years ago.
Also "the rot" of the rebel squadrons seems to be the only one who do anything at least from what I see, and I tend to see a lot I have eyes everywhere.
And you can have all those people who support you post all they want.
MGN Nicolai Ginofev - Fri Nov 13 2009, 9:49pm
...hm.Disapointing. Really, it is. Granted, I pay attention to things outside of the ABG and as of recently, RID as much as I pay attention to reality TV, which those of you who know me knows that means not at all.
I'm afraid that Sconn has a point. You spouted off in this rather lenghty e-mail (and I leave it at that) that you had "great plans" for Rebel Squadrons and yet...I cant name anything that's been done past #rebelsquadrons. And Mr. Bot's anti-swearing measures. I mean, I dont expect great and bold things to happen every time an FC comes in, but to show up, claim you got huge plans, and then not do anything, followed by saying that this club will evaporate and crumble...uh, someone's got a high opinion of themselves.
Been with RS for...oh, four, maybe five years. Still dont know alot of the big players around here. But I can tell you that I dont see any indication this club is in danger of "evaporating". Maybe I'm blind. Who knows. But you know, you cant just jump up and say you're going to fix everything, and then when nothing happens, run off and say we're doomed. That's just poor leadership and unbecoming of anyone in any leadership role.
We all have real life issues that take us away from here, but we still have plenty of people who come back, and we even have people come in from other clubs to join us. We have a good core of people who have known each other for years, and we're united in the fact we all want to be apart of this social group that is focused around Star Wars, a series that for better or for worse, we all enjoy.
So, you want to go off and pout, fine. I suppose we should be thankful you didnt find some way to rape the site so that it would never come back or plant some virus in it that would crash our computers. I dont ask for leaders to come in and revolutionize the way this place works. Sometimes, we just need a groundskeeper. Someone to keep the place working, pull out some weeds once in a while, and let it grow on its own.
In conclusion, do what you wish, but dont try and convince us all that because you're not here, we're doomed for failure. Stay, go, it's your call. I mean, yeah I've had my fill and blew a gasket a time too many, but I'm admitting right now that I was no more right than you are. To say, not at all. But I've remained here just because frankly, I've made friends here, it's still something I like to do, and I think that's reason enough. So, act as you see fit, just be prepared to reap the consequences of your decision.
And Davin: you are such a toolshed. I mean...really. You're the one who took his little private fan club and ran off because no one would change the ABG just because you threw your fits. Need I remind you about how you threatened Raven that unless he coughed up DCs for your little project, you wouldnt GM. So, go back into your little corner with your fan club and stay there. Where you belong. At least Castor was thinking of the RS. You...it's all about you and your inner circle.
-Lt. Col. Nicolai "Cipher" Ginovef
-Special Forces Wing Executive Officer, Allegience Battle Group
-Rightious Indignation Division Second Officer
-Generally Dismayed
ADM Kirghy Lommax - Fri Nov 13 2009, 10:55pm
I think that's quite enough of that. As Josh stated, this is a public forum, not the place to launch attacks against each other. If you all want to have a knock-down, drag-out fight, be my guest, but please do it in private communications. Not only does this fuel dissension among our own, it also harms us with recruiting. So, everyone just be cool.
I'm sure I could say lots of things, but I'll just leave it at this: Good luck out there, Castor. Wish things had worked out better.
FA Danny "David Lee Japan" Qatar - Fri Nov 13 2009, 11:45pm
Yo Castor, I'm really happy for ya, and imma let you finish, but Licah's ditch and run was still the best HC meltdown of all time. FA Sienn "The Rot" Sconn - Sat Nov 14 2009, 5:06am
While I would really prefer that this flame war didn't continue and advocate the opinions expressed by both Kirghy and Josh; that this shouldn't continue here. However, since this has become a very public and ugly pissing contest, I think I have the right to defend myself against an entirely baseless accusation.My profanity in RS-wide e-mails:
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-09-08/My+goodbyes+and+the+announcement+of+a+new+FC!
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-09-01/State+of+the+Rebel+Squadrons+Address,+August+2009
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-08-16/A+Somewhat+Special+Anniversary
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-06-04/State+of+the+Rebel+Squadrons+Address,+May+2009
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-05-04/State+of+the+Rebel+Squadrons+Address,+April+2009
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-02-28/State+of+the+Rebel+Squadrons+Address,+2.28.09
http://www.rebelsquadrons.org/news/2009-01-31/SotRS,+1.31.2009
You can see in these URLs above every club wide e-mail I sent out during my term as RSFC. I invite you to check them for profanity yourself, as I already have. It's a pretty simple process, anyone accessing this news post can simply pull up the URL; type CTRL+F in your web browser and enter the search terms of any offensive words. You won't find a censored word anywhere there, at least nothing that would get me kicked from #rebelsquadrons under your advisement. The words 'damn' and 'bitch', do appear, however. Do you have any other examples of my drunken rants that are ruining the club? Because on the scoreboard for "profanity used when addressing the club", I'm losing to you, 2 to well, nothing.
In addition, I'd like to respectfully point out two statements that further illustrate the points I've previously touched on.
From your initial rant:
"The one single thing that the Rebel Squadrons is all about is creating as beleivable an Alternate Reality for ourselves as we possibly can. While we are a fan club, our structure is military - our format is based on the Rebellion, but modified to accomodate all our different divisions and various pieces. Therefore the Chain of Command is consistent with who we are and how we can best run the RS. Our chain of command runs from the general member, all the way up through the Division Leaders and ends at the top with the Rebel Squadrons Fleet Commander. ...or...at least...that's the way it's supposed to work. The RSFC gives the "orders", and the Division Leaders see to it that those Big Picture Ideas are disseminated throughout the club."
My intermediate response, of course, can be seen as posted above.
From your equally public posting in response:
"I don't give orders, I give suggestions. Is the distinction significant? And would it really have mattered? Had I said: "Get this done" or "Everyone will show Respect from now on" or any of the other things I wrote about; would being Roninesque have made those things be received with open arms, or met just as much resistance, apathy and ridicule? I'm thinking it wouldn't have made much difference."
Do you see the disconnect here? The first paragraph references a clear vision for how the command structure of the club, as you see it, is "supposed" to work. The second obviously contradicts that earlier written statement.
Admittedly, I'm confused.
LCL Anubis - Sat Nov 14 2009, 10:31am
I must agree with Josh's first statement. This is one hell of a pissing contest. And I'm amused greatly. Castor contradicting himself, making claims that Sconn proved to be total bullshit.... it really is humourus. I've never seen the words "Surely you must jest" used in a post before, until now. You officially know how to get people going. Maybe we should do this more often?As for Nico and Davin... that was great. It truely was. Sadly (but not so much, because I personally like him more), I also have to agree with Nico on this one. Davin, you're a tool. And you're a tool that's sucking up to someone that isn't even in charge anymore. If I can remember correctly, you also randomly took your KFC (Kabak Fan Club, props to Nico) and ran away. Seems kinda BALOGNA to me... I totally didn't know that you had threatened not to GM if Mike didn't create the DCs for a project for you. That's incredibly low, man. Have fun in psuedo-LoA, jackass.
I really wish I would of seen these comments earlier. Otherwise the post wouldn't have been so late, and I apologize for that.
FA Joshua Hawkins - Sat Nov 14 2009, 10:51am
Right. Enough. Damage done. just let this end. No more comments please. Any further discussions take them to emails or a private IRC room. No one is helping by letting this all air out of the main page.